Some clarity
I think I need to clarify some things quickly. (I hope its quickly)
This is in reference to Peters comments (who btw is an awesome bass guitarist) but is once again done as a main post because it might be useful for others to read.
Comments 1
Comments 2
Comments 3
When I refer to evolution I refer to
a)Darwin's hypothesis.
b)Its presuppositions.
c)The consequences of those beliefs when hold on to in a closed system.
d)All the ideas and thoughts that have since been attached to evolution.
In other words I realize that originally Darwin's hypothesis did not include items c) and d). Fallen humanity has added those in and perhaps taken it a lot further than Darwin ever imagined. I am then therefore concerned about the "fruit" of evolution.
Also when I refer to evolution, I am referring to macro evolution, not micro evolution or natural selection. Natural selection is observable and does not conflict with genesis in any way.
In my view though natural selection is another sign that evolutions mutations into different species over billions of years is non sensical since we can observe some extreme (very extreme ) changes that happen in some species in 1 generation. An example is taking wild pigs into captivity... in 1 generation (and I saw this on a secular documentary) their tusk virtually disappear and they practically stop growing hair and become tame. These kind of changes are supposedly supposed to take at least a couple of generations.
If Darwins hypothesis were left at a)... then it would still be interesting scienctific debate. Unfortunately the ramifications of the idea have resulted in a religion of evolution which has resulted in the death of millions of people... just as the consequences Marx's ideas resulted in more deaths than any disease/war in the history of man.
What does it do to a little kids self esteem to be told you're an ape? At first nothing. I would go as far as to say that we are in a generation were we can't even answer that question because every kid is being told they are animals. They may laugh and think its funny etc. But what happens during purberty... when someone is looking for a sense of identity... when someone is wanting to know the answer to the question "What is my purpose?".
If evolution is at the core of your thinking (sub-consciously anyway), then somewhere influencing your thinking whether you like it or not is the following:
I am random.
I am nothing more than a chance combination of genes.
I must survive.
There is something wrong with me because.....
I have really met people that believe those things. And even worse things... I have done surveys on WITS campus in fact with people and heard things like
"We have no purpose"
"I exist to have fun"
"Well Gareth, essentially we are controlled by instincts to propagate our own species... so my primary desire/purpose is to have as much sex as possible before I die." (and this guy was actually been very serious).
We (there were a couple of us doing the surveys) even encountered one of the professors who completely blew up and starting shouting when asked if he believes in creation?
These are obviously extreme examples. But they are slowly becoming the norm amongst secularist. These responses were quite common in fact... they were more than 10%. I would say 15-20% of the people I spoke to were in this category. Imagine... 10-20 years from now if 15-20% of the people in high leadership positions in our country (South Africa) believe they are nothing more than intelligent animals with no real purpose except to propagate their species.
This will have a major effect on the sanctity of human life. On corruption. On government funding. On racism. The Zim crisis is partly effected by this. There education system has been UK based. The UK has been teaching evolution far longer than we have (in a more stable environment than Zim)... I studied with Zim students that are adamant that Rob Mugabe is a hero and that black people are a superior race.
Then about me being a biblical literalist... of course there are clearly some parts of the bible that are poetry and imagery. For instance I don't believe that only 144 000 people will go to heaven as it states in revelations.... revelations was a dream... which means it is metaphoric in nature and should be treated as such. The way Daniel and Joseph treat dreams gives us a could indication that to treat dreams/visions as literal is complete stupidity.
There are many other people though that have analyzed the writing styles of the Hebrew text. Genesis is written as an historical account and not as a story.
I am glad that our difference in interpretation is of degree and not of type. And let me state for the record that my blood boils when I hear someone says
"Now listen here sonny, the bible is the infallible word of God because it says in 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16 that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work"... so there you have it sonny... proof that the bible is the inspired word of God"
I mean... what kind of logic is that. It would be the same as me saying to people that because I say I am the reincarnation of Elvis that it must be true that I am Elvis.
That piece of scripture doesn't prove anything... it merely states the purpose of scripture. I can't believe how many times somebody has tried to quote that to me as proof that the bible is infallible.
In the end my attack is not on the original theory of evolution but on the consequences of the ideas of evolution. I hope you are aware that the full title of Darwin's book was "The Origin of the Species. The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" Sounds a little racist to me.
I've got to be honest at this point... while I am definitely on the creationist side of the fence... I am not an active participant in the evolution/creation debate.
I have only looked far enough into both to see that.
a) There is no conclusive evidence that proves speciation within evolution.
b) There is a lot of science that disputes old earth theory.
c) The earth is at least 6-10 thousand years old... and its definitely less than a billion years old.
d) Evolution is been taught and accepted as fact while nurmerous scientists are still hoping to prove it... never mind understand it.
e)Most creationist are predominantly (including myself to a large degree) emotionally driven in their defense.
f)The most popular (like Dawkin's and Hawkins... hey they rhyme haha) atheistic/evolutionary evangelist/propagandists discriminate against anyone who disagrees with them and their books have major flaws which they average Joe on the street just accepts as proof but which even an average non-science university graduate (such as myself) can see as having problems.
In the end I'm not telling everybody believe in creation or else you will burn in hell, my hope is that people don't just accept evolution and actually look into it. I realize that there will be a lot that still decide to believe in evolution... but they won't lay there lives on it at least.
My concern is always about the Kingdom of God... and living my life to the capacity that Jesus made possible. I am interested in people knowing God more. I love being able to decide things for myself with the mind that God gave me.
Peter, you are clearly someone that also enjoys thinking for himself.
My primary objective is that people will think for themselves.
My secondary objective is that the people that prefer not to think for themselves would be blown away by my amazing emotive language and the proof (even though I have given none) I state on what nonsense evolution is and decide that they have really thought through it hard (without actually looking at any evidence) and follow me... viva la rEvolution. hehehe....
Ok... actually I feel sorry for the people that do fall into that second category because they are as the bible describes "tossed in the wind from one side to another" and are then worse (in my mind) than the atheistic/evolutionary evangelists because they don't "test" everything as scripture says.
If you are interested in having a discussion with someone that is more well read... and more passionate about looking in deeper than I am... I could try arrange some email correspondence with a friend of mine who is "called" to this kind of thing.
Oh yes... in one of my posts I referred to how apparent evidence is open to interpretation.
You gave an example of how different species have similar bones, joints etc that can be shown to be anatomically equivalent.
Well... If I break open my car radio and break open my brothers TV, I am likely to find components in both that are "anatomically" equivalent (and receive a beating from my brother). Now it would be ridiculous to assume they evolved from each other. It was probably cheaper/easier/practical/useful to use certain components that had already been designed and were known to achieve to desired purpose and were therefore simply put in both appliances in the manufacturing process.
Likewise a creationists argument would be why reinvent the ribcage... or the wrist bone.. the one the monkey uses would be just fine with some minor modification for the human.
Heck... did you know that there are even some scientific theories for why everyone in the bible pre-flood could live so long... and why indeed we all started with only 1 Adam and 1 eve and didn't result in a bunch of stupid people (although sometimes I think I'm surrounded by them) from the inbreeding.
Some of the theories are crazy... but no more crazy than the idea of a round earth/radio waves/x-rays/airplanes or evolution when they were first conceived of and propagated.
If someone is willing to believe evolution
Thanks for the conversation... I would prefer if we took this on further in person though... I do not wish for my blog to become a forum (besides like I said... I really dislike long posts)... thanks for taking the time to look into things... I hope that your convictions and your search for truth have both been strengthened.... or alternatively that they have been shaken.
This is in reference to Peters comments (who btw is an awesome bass guitarist) but is once again done as a main post because it might be useful for others to read.
Comments 1
Comments 2
Comments 3
When I refer to evolution I refer to
a)Darwin's hypothesis.
b)Its presuppositions.
c)The consequences of those beliefs when hold on to in a closed system.
d)All the ideas and thoughts that have since been attached to evolution.
In other words I realize that originally Darwin's hypothesis did not include items c) and d). Fallen humanity has added those in and perhaps taken it a lot further than Darwin ever imagined. I am then therefore concerned about the "fruit" of evolution.
Also when I refer to evolution, I am referring to macro evolution, not micro evolution or natural selection. Natural selection is observable and does not conflict with genesis in any way.
In my view though natural selection is another sign that evolutions mutations into different species over billions of years is non sensical since we can observe some extreme (very extreme ) changes that happen in some species in 1 generation. An example is taking wild pigs into captivity... in 1 generation (and I saw this on a secular documentary) their tusk virtually disappear and they practically stop growing hair and become tame. These kind of changes are supposedly supposed to take at least a couple of generations.
If Darwins hypothesis were left at a)... then it would still be interesting scienctific debate. Unfortunately the ramifications of the idea have resulted in a religion of evolution which has resulted in the death of millions of people... just as the consequences Marx's ideas resulted in more deaths than any disease/war in the history of man.
What does it do to a little kids self esteem to be told you're an ape? At first nothing. I would go as far as to say that we are in a generation were we can't even answer that question because every kid is being told they are animals. They may laugh and think its funny etc. But what happens during purberty... when someone is looking for a sense of identity... when someone is wanting to know the answer to the question "What is my purpose?".
If evolution is at the core of your thinking (sub-consciously anyway), then somewhere influencing your thinking whether you like it or not is the following:
I am random.
I am nothing more than a chance combination of genes.
I must survive.
There is something wrong with me because.....
- Johnny runs faster
- Jim gets all the girls
- Tom gets higher marks
- Susie has nicer parents
- I have more pimples than xyz
I have really met people that believe those things. And even worse things... I have done surveys on WITS campus in fact with people and heard things like
"We have no purpose"
"I exist to have fun"
"Well Gareth, essentially we are controlled by instincts to propagate our own species... so my primary desire/purpose is to have as much sex as possible before I die." (and this guy was actually been very serious).
We (there were a couple of us doing the surveys) even encountered one of the professors who completely blew up and starting shouting when asked if he believes in creation?
These are obviously extreme examples. But they are slowly becoming the norm amongst secularist. These responses were quite common in fact... they were more than 10%. I would say 15-20% of the people I spoke to were in this category. Imagine... 10-20 years from now if 15-20% of the people in high leadership positions in our country (South Africa) believe they are nothing more than intelligent animals with no real purpose except to propagate their species.
This will have a major effect on the sanctity of human life. On corruption. On government funding. On racism. The Zim crisis is partly effected by this. There education system has been UK based. The UK has been teaching evolution far longer than we have (in a more stable environment than Zim)... I studied with Zim students that are adamant that Rob Mugabe is a hero and that black people are a superior race.
Then about me being a biblical literalist... of course there are clearly some parts of the bible that are poetry and imagery. For instance I don't believe that only 144 000 people will go to heaven as it states in revelations.... revelations was a dream... which means it is metaphoric in nature and should be treated as such. The way Daniel and Joseph treat dreams gives us a could indication that to treat dreams/visions as literal is complete stupidity.
There are many other people though that have analyzed the writing styles of the Hebrew text. Genesis is written as an historical account and not as a story.
I am glad that our difference in interpretation is of degree and not of type. And let me state for the record that my blood boils when I hear someone says
"Now listen here sonny, the bible is the infallible word of God because it says in 2 Timothy chapter 3 verse 16 that "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work"... so there you have it sonny... proof that the bible is the inspired word of God"
I mean... what kind of logic is that. It would be the same as me saying to people that because I say I am the reincarnation of Elvis that it must be true that I am Elvis.
That piece of scripture doesn't prove anything... it merely states the purpose of scripture. I can't believe how many times somebody has tried to quote that to me as proof that the bible is infallible.
In the end my attack is not on the original theory of evolution but on the consequences of the ideas of evolution. I hope you are aware that the full title of Darwin's book was "The Origin of the Species. The Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" Sounds a little racist to me.
I've got to be honest at this point... while I am definitely on the creationist side of the fence... I am not an active participant in the evolution/creation debate.
I have only looked far enough into both to see that.
a) There is no conclusive evidence that proves speciation within evolution.
b) There is a lot of science that disputes old earth theory.
c) The earth is at least 6-10 thousand years old... and its definitely less than a billion years old.
d) Evolution is been taught and accepted as fact while nurmerous scientists are still hoping to prove it... never mind understand it.
e)Most creationist are predominantly (including myself to a large degree) emotionally driven in their defense.
f)The most popular (like Dawkin's and Hawkins... hey they rhyme haha) atheistic/evolutionary evangelist/propagandists discriminate against anyone who disagrees with them and their books have major flaws which they average Joe on the street just accepts as proof but which even an average non-science university graduate (such as myself) can see as having problems.
In the end I'm not telling everybody believe in creation or else you will burn in hell, my hope is that people don't just accept evolution and actually look into it. I realize that there will be a lot that still decide to believe in evolution... but they won't lay there lives on it at least.
My concern is always about the Kingdom of God... and living my life to the capacity that Jesus made possible. I am interested in people knowing God more. I love being able to decide things for myself with the mind that God gave me.
Peter, you are clearly someone that also enjoys thinking for himself.
My primary objective is that people will think for themselves.
My secondary objective is that the people that prefer not to think for themselves would be blown away by my amazing emotive language and the proof (even though I have given none) I state on what nonsense evolution is and decide that they have really thought through it hard (without actually looking at any evidence) and follow me... viva la rEvolution. hehehe....
Ok... actually I feel sorry for the people that do fall into that second category because they are as the bible describes "tossed in the wind from one side to another" and are then worse (in my mind) than the atheistic/evolutionary evangelists because they don't "test" everything as scripture says.
If you are interested in having a discussion with someone that is more well read... and more passionate about looking in deeper than I am... I could try arrange some email correspondence with a friend of mine who is "called" to this kind of thing.
Oh yes... in one of my posts I referred to how apparent evidence is open to interpretation.
You gave an example of how different species have similar bones, joints etc that can be shown to be anatomically equivalent.
Well... If I break open my car radio and break open my brothers TV, I am likely to find components in both that are "anatomically" equivalent (and receive a beating from my brother). Now it would be ridiculous to assume they evolved from each other. It was probably cheaper/easier/practical/useful to use certain components that had already been designed and were known to achieve to desired purpose and were therefore simply put in both appliances in the manufacturing process.
Likewise a creationists argument would be why reinvent the ribcage... or the wrist bone.. the one the monkey uses would be just fine with some minor modification for the human.
Heck... did you know that there are even some scientific theories for why everyone in the bible pre-flood could live so long... and why indeed we all started with only 1 Adam and 1 eve and didn't result in a bunch of stupid people (although sometimes I think I'm surrounded by them) from the inbreeding.
Some of the theories are crazy... but no more crazy than the idea of a round earth/radio waves/x-rays/airplanes or evolution when they were first conceived of and propagated.
If someone is willing to believe evolution
Thanks for the conversation... I would prefer if we took this on further in person though... I do not wish for my blog to become a forum (besides like I said... I really dislike long posts)... thanks for taking the time to look into things... I hope that your convictions and your search for truth have both been strengthened.... or alternatively that they have been shaken.
posted by Gareth at 8:26 AM
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